(filtration) wrote in artisans,


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A question

As Artisans, how do you feel about and how have you been affected by N-snobbery in the typing world?
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hey, we're not snobs, you low life scumbag, rat-infested peasants of the lower world of eternal darkness.
anyways, i'm an iNfp, yes i know i shouldn't be here, but i wouldn't mind an explanation of N snobbery. i'm not trying to impose or anything, just a little curious. thanx.
I, the moderator, am an INFJ, actually, and no, this community isn't some kind of SP sanctuary; all types are welcome as long as an interest in SP-related discussion is present.

Intuitives are roughly a quarter of the population, much, much less populous than sensors, and because of this a select few intuitives can be a more than a little cruel. N-snobbery comes in many forms, ranging from, "I have no S," to "S's are fucking retards and exist to serve N's." (Yes, those are EXACT quotes from arguments I have heard in the past.) I've met Rationals and Idealists who say things such as, "You know, I don't think I would mind it too terribly if any of my type letters change—unless it's the N, anyway."

Most people who are typing amateurs exist to "collect the good types," so to speak. They stigmatize being an S and avoid it at all costs; this is why people always see INFX, ENXP, XNTJ, or some other mixed type—yet it is SO RARE to see someone on the fence for N/S that it could be said that they do not even exist. I've even met someone who claimed to be an XNXX. People are quick to place themselves as N's (or more truthfully, as non-S's), which creates a less-than-welcoming atmosphere for true S's. How would you feel if someone immediately thought you were less intelligent just because you test as a sensor (this is what happened in my class when we experimented with the MBTI)?

I myself (a INTP) would not want to be a S. But for that matter neither would I want to change any of my other letters/functions. for I believe that I, like everyone from prince to pauper, from retard to the highest of geniuses were created beautifully and with a measure of perfection.

I do not believe that MBTI was meant to make people want to actually change any of their functions. Rather we should learn to appreciate each others differences, develop our potential and learn to adapt when needed.

That said there might be good reason why so few people claim to be a S as well as a N. It is quite easy for a introvert to mistake himself for a extrovert and visa versa. After all most of us can comfortably be with people at times and can also tolerate time being spent alone. Likewise people often mistake themselves thinking that they are Thinkers while they are Feelers and visa versa. Why people can mistake having a ounce of empathy or the ability to make a crossword puzzle can make them think they are a opposite rational function (F and T are Rational Functions) is a question for another time but it happens more often then one might think (or perhaps hope).

However I believe that when it comes to S vs N people people might find it easier to differ between the two. The terms Sensor and iNtuitive for instance appear a lot less in the modern vocabulary then their rational counterparts (S and N being Irrational Functions). One might also think that S and N have a lot more influence on our interests and such. One who thinks mostly of what is to be will find little reason to want to mistake himself into believing that he only thinks about the present. Nor will someone that lives mostly in the present find much virtue in abandoning the present and pondering endlessly of the future.

I must admit however that in the past I have wondered about the superiority of some Types and Temperaments over others. Then I would examine the data at hand and decide that their are vastly superior criteria to judge people by then MBTI. If you are so inclined of course.

Hmm.. I hope I have not insulted anyone.
I was all meant in the best of humor.
I find it pretty disrespectful that you would assume that a person wouldn't know of T/F to be rational and S/N to be irrational. (I prefer to call them judging and perceiving functions myself.) Your post is also of a lot of irrelevance; it relates mainly to how people find themselves on the scale and devotes three sentences to the actual point of the original comment. Not that I don't mind going off-topic; I only want to point it out.

No, what you say does not make any real sense to me. People should be able to mistake themselves on any of the four scales. You might be able to see a clear line between N and S, and and a not so clear line between I and E, but you can't speak for everyone; I, personally, have an extraordinarily easy time calling myself an I. To say that people who think of the future won't call themselves S whereas people who who think of the present won't call themselves N makes sense, but not in this situation, where I am talking about X's. When people use the X marker, they are saying that they areat the midway point. If they think "only" (not that this is possible) about one time or the other, obviously picking between the two will come to them with ease.

Accepting the idea that your hypothesis is true (that N and S are easier to differentiate), it still does not justify or explain N-superiority. Your comments in regard to wondering about type superiority also serves to completely invalidate all your points.
1 Believe it or not but not everybody buys or reads the books and not everyone knows what a irrational and rational function is. I have met these people on livejournal and on other sites. Sometimes it is better to be a bit more detailed rather then too vague (which according to what I've read is more preferred by Sensors which are the targeted audience here).

2 This might surprise you but using a "x" can mean different things in different communities. It could mean that someone scored between two functions but it could also mean that someone is both functions or that one is simply not sure which one he is. This as with most things in my post come from quite a few years in a variety of communities for different Types, Temperaments and different media.

3 If you would read that small 3 sentence paragraph well you might deduce that while _*in the past*_ I have *wondered* about Type superiority I came to the conclusion that MBTI is NOT a good criteria to judge people by. Meaning not only that one should not judge people by their irrational function but that one should not judge by any other function/type or whatnot at all.

And if it is not crystal clear by now entertaining a thought is a mark of education and wisdom. For if one cannot wonder if something is correct or not one stays with the values and thoughts you have for the rest of your life. One does not grow then and stays immature.

When I test, I consistently test very close to the S/N border,
generally falling one point over on the S side; but in terms
of description, I'm most comfortable with the S description
rather than the N description, so that's the category I
self-select into.

I think the S-types in general don't spend as much time online,
as it's not really as engaging as the real world outside, so
they'll tend to be represented in smaller numbers in forums
like this.

As far as any stigma goes, I don't think S-types really care all
that much about the mental gyrations of the N-types. Each type
has its strengths and uses, and it's easy to understand why some
might prefer their internal world to the world outside; that's their
gig, and they're welcome to it. It's just a shame they miss out on
so much that's going on around them. ^_^;;
I am exactly 50/50 :-)


April 5 2005, 19:48:55 UTC 11 years ago

I have noticed the tendency to identify with either Ns or Ss, but I am very frustrated because I simply cannot determine whether I am an ISFP or an INFP. Is there some tell tale sign to help determine this?

I hope you'll check this post out sometime, because otherwise you won't be needing this description anyways ;) I'm an INFP, and I was checking this forum out because my dad's an ISTP, and most of the time our differences are really big and we don't really understand eachother. My dad can be pretty cruel to, so this was my way of trying to figure my dad out and try to build up a more solid relationship with him.

I'll try to explain you the differences between an INFP and ISFP (both enneagram type 4, so very similar on the inside).
I mentioned that ISFP's are more artistic than INFP's. Most of the time I don't have the motivation to express myself artistic, although I'd love to. Because of the S, ISFPs are better to really express feelings/thoughts into paintings, poems, songs and stuff like that.
Another difference I've noticed is that ISFP's are more impulsive than an INFP. They are more prone to get addicted to relieve the pain they are feeling, while INFPs start to think about crazy stuff (like committing suicide) rather than actually doing it.
Hehe, this sounds really depressing but I can assure you, this will only happen in rare cases so I hope the visitors of this forum won't get a disturbed image of the INFP/ISFP.

Hope this will help you to sort it all out ;)
I'd also like to add that while in this community, you are free to say what you want, I far from appreciate your sense of humor.
Just wanted to wish you luck.
also, what mbti does this short description remind you of? atleast if you had to minimize the categories.

""Seems to be a control issue; you're sense of control of your situation is threatened, so, you get manic as a defense and try to reassert control. You really do believe that you should be in control of this board."
... ST? ... ESTJ?
I'm an N here, and I guess the first thing that's interesting about N-snobbery is the fact that the mbti world seems to be dominated by N's after all since you are an INFJ (not saying you're a snob!), most likely because much of it is theoretical, so our bias is likely to show up here and there.

And as far as clique-ness goes, our irrational function tends to stick with others of the same: I only have one friend who is an S (and he's a weak s/weak n, so I guess you could say X) and all of my other friends are N's. I don't hold an official snobbery against S's at all really, but knowing that all of my friends are N's makes me realize that those are the people who I obviously get along with. I think this would be espeacially true among introverted N's.

I do however highly admire SJ's, I only wish I could be so responsible. Sorry for replying to such an old entry by the way.
Actually, I don't find that true at all; I have friends from all the types and more S friends than N friends (that can be attributed to their higher numbers and to my relative complacence with virtually anyone), and in fact having so many S friends whom I like and respect was what motivated me to create the community. Consequently, it just seems strange to hear a person come to an SP community and say, "All my friends are N except for one and he's kind of in a gray area." Such a remark can sound divisive and perhaps even factually inaccurate (there are bound to be S's you like and N's you dislike). While I agree that persons of same perceiving functions do tend to gravitate to each other, and it's certainly fair to say that you individually get along with certain types of people more than others, saying that you empirically don't get along with S's seems like it defeats the purpose of the MBTI.
I don't purposely surround myself with N's, that's just how it happens, in the past they're the only people I've truly been able to form a strong friendship that is above being an acquaintance. Therefore it's not divisive if it's not purposeful.

The purpose of the MBTI as I see it is more to help me understand my actions, not so much as help me get along with others. It's okay not to have certain people as friends so long as you can at least get along with them; I certainly don't say to someone who approaches with friendship in mind, "No way, I believe you're an S."
I never said that the MBTI was made so we could all get along happily and hold hands and dance around with flowers in our hair. When I said, "[S]aying that you empirically don't get along with S's seems like it defeats the purpose of the MBTI," I meant that to use a tool of understanding as an excuse not to understand/tolerate others (which is what you do when you are not friends with a certain type of people) is what defeats the purpose of the MBTI. Now that you've clarified that must be not what you were doing, I apologize. (Sorry this comment posted multiple times.)
I consider myself an ISTP, though I'd argue it's a relatively weak S.

The greatest disconnect I've seen between S and N is not that N's are more intellectual, but that S's typically don't care. So you're full of shit; I don't need a 1000-word response to detail why, instead I'll turn off the computer and go do something that I actually find fun.
I am both ENTP and ESTP so I dunno ;-)
Okay, I'm going to be honest with you guys because I don't like all that fake shit.
Both my parents are S and I have to admit, I don't really get along with them and I sometimes wish them to be more intuitive. I'll try to explain why.

Most of the time I think their love for me is not unconditional love. They love me when I get high grades, have a rich boyfriend and live a simply life having kids and stuff like that. The fact is, my boyfriend isn't rich, but I love him and I think that's the main reason to start a relationship with someone for me.. also, simple life sounds to me like boring, and I don't like children, so I'm not exactly fitting the profile.
I do love them for who they are, their faults and strenghts and I'm really sad to mention that's not mutual..

Another thing is, when I start having a discussion with my ISTP dad, he's so inflexible. He always thinks he's right, and tells me that he's older and wiser than me. I, on the other hand, thinks that wiseness don't have anything to do with age, and there isn't always 1 way that's right. In his point of view, everything has to be done in just one way, his opinion is the only thing that's right for me.. And if I have another opinion, I'm crazy, because being different is crazy.
As an INFP, I don't think different is always wrong. I love being different, and hate people for being all the same.

When he's unhealthy he always starts to upset people.. Like saying really cruel things and hitting your weak spots. In the past, my father hurted me a lot. He makes me feel like nothing sometimes, but the truth is he's projecting his selfhate at others.

I don't want to say that all ISTPs are like this, and I don't want to say that I'm better than all S types.. But I do want to say that we just don't get along well, although I wish we could because I love my parents, and there are also a lot of good stuff in them. But, the things I mentioned are really standing in our way of communication.

Greetings from an INFP,
i'm an ISTP, and i think the S is the letter that i am most sure about. i go to the University of Chicago -- an extremely N-dominated school -- my parents are both Ns, my boyfriend is an INTP, and more of my close friends are N than S. i don't feel like i have experienced much in the way of N-snobbery, but i do often wish that i had more opportunities to hang out with Ss. i was surprised to find out that Ss are much more common than Ns in the "real world", since that is so at odds with my own experience!